holy shit, you have articulated this absolutely perfectly. Do you mind if I link it from my blog? Your voice is incredible and I think more people should read this essay!

It sure seems that way. Well said! I agree wholeheartedly.

Excellent article!

this is so well put.

You’ve raised such an important point here:

“I also generally think that the FMF movement is doing more to make the idea of feminism less threatening to men than it is to promote the sexual empowerment of women.”

if we have concerns that are important to us- or of life-or-death importance to us- we should not be afraid to address them, regardless of whether or not it makes others “uncomfortable”.

thanks! great post.

o.a.g. likes.

“We are taught that our sexual gratification and fulfillment (i.e. orgasm) are so much less important than those of men that the two activities which are most likely to give us orgasms (manual stimulation and oral sex) are generally not even regarded as “actual” sex at all.”

Whoa. I never thought about that before. It’s true, damn it’s true…

All that talk about the g-spot, and none about our “orgasm almost guaranteed”spot - the clitoris.

not only a great and well thought-out piece (?!) but you’ve got someone straight off saying, ‘whoa, i never thought about that before.’ The prisoner analogy is excellent. thanks

I’m a feminnist who likes porn. But not porn with women. Ok, I admit to liking gay porn, but being turned completely off and disgusted by het porn.

And there’s a lot of women out there who feel the same way I do. I know lots of them, in fact.

and I know lots who don’t, your point?

Porn is exploitave, especially in a patriarchal society. It is never ok when someone is exploited. NEVER.

Windy,

Hurray for you. I’d believe you maybe if you knew how to spell feminist.

I just flat out don’t think it’s right that women are used as sex objects on tv, and ads, and newspapers. I hate, and I mean absolutely hate how businesses just put women on things cause men will enjoy sex and stuff like that. Women’s sexuality is just as important as mens’ even though most men in a way put women under themselves. I hate how society is and wish everyone could truly be equal but that doesn’t seem like that can happen unless genders are gotten rid of. Oh, and is stuff like michaelangelo paintings and stuff porn cause those old paintings just have a certain feel to them that’s so different. I’m not trying to be perverted or anything, I don’t look at them because I have a desire to see the female body or male body, I just think they’re really talented pieces and I am a male artist (15).

Jesse, I think you’re in the process of learning the difference between pornography and erotic art. These aren’t things you can really give a concrete definition. The difference is more in how they make you feel when you look at them. Does that make sense?

[…] a decent life. My family lied to me, and I am angry for that. [Curtsy: Rachel’s Tavern.] The Double Edged Sword of Fuck Me Feminism UK nurses want to supply clean blades and cutting advice to se […]

Piggybacking on the prisoner analogy and summarizing my feelings about FMF is a quote from playwright Carolyn Gage:

“Remember, the grateful prisoner may get extra rations, but it’s the indignant one who gets over the wall.”

Thanks for the read.

Erotic art really was ‘pornographic’ back then though. I’m studying cultural theory - just read a piece about the history of the Venus of Urbino by Titian. A Cardinal spotted this painting and requested the artist make another painting of a “naked lady.” Not a brilliantly styled nude, not a Dionysian triumph. A naked lady. These paintings were considered “bedroom” art, you didn’t hang it in the social rooms, and it was covered up when guests came over. People talk shit out their ass about art.

I thought this was a great commentary. Thanks.

Are FMFs embracing the short skirts and high heels, the strip clubs and porn videos, the one night stands and meaningless trysts because these things are truly expressions of their own sexuality, or because those particular expressions of sexuality satisfy male need and mens’ idea of what female sexuality is, and helps men drop the distinction between feminist and fuckable piece of ass? Are the women who proudly proclaim themselves fuck me feminists more interested in promoting acceptance of their sexuality or in gaining male acceptance?

Exactly. The central problem is that many ‘FMFs’ implicitly buy into the patriachal social construction that women’s sexuality consists solely or primarily of performance to satisfy men’s sexual desires. This is implicit in their conflation of sex-work (porn, stripping, prostitution) with women’s sexuality.

It presents a false dichotomy where the options are the old patriachal social construction of ‘women’s sexuality’ simply not existing because the only sexuality that existed was men’s sexuality, or the new patriarchal social construction that ‘women’s sexuality’ exists, and consists primarily of performance to satisfy men’s sexuality.

re: art
True. A friend of mine is an art historian, and she’s explained that painting and sculpture were once viewed as a craft comparable to, say, carpentry.

Fantastic post, all of it.

It seems like for years now, the only “feminist” voices that have been allowed to be heard have been those of the FMF variety.

Thank god for the emergence of alternative voices!

Well, offhand, I would say it’s like going to the bathroom- not everything needs to be a movement, sometimes you can just relieve yourself.

You hit the nail on the head! I agree with EVERY word.

I’m still torn, though, because while I totally agree that 99.9% of porn is exploitative, I don’t think it really HAS to be. I mean, wouldn’t it be OK if it was really just intended to turn people on, but not to degrade one sex or another? And in that sense, it would be good if women are also consumers, because it has the potential to move things in that direction.

In other words, porn is the the way it is now for two reasons: 1) Not as many women watch porn and 2) Of the ones that do, not very many of them are particularly feminist. If feminists specifically sought out “porn/erotica/etc” that was more equal and respectful, is it possible that this would have some influence? I’m just sort-of speculating here - again, it assumes that images of people engaged in sexual activity *could* be OK in specific contexts.

I agree whole heartedly with you Barbara. Most of pornography is degrading and just… deficient. It can be terrible, but with that said, I have personally seen some fantastic porn, and it definitely didn’t fit with the girly ‘erotica’ that is socially acceptable for women to get off to these days. A great deal of amature porn made by FMFs for thier own enjoyment is fundamentally different from the traditional porn and is incredibly hot. With the internet, the type of porn out there for public consumption is wildly varied, and if you can find those amazing, empowered, and very, very hot videos, why wouldn’t I support those women?

I’m curious about the FMF amateur porn. How do you find such stuff. Call me naive, but I don’t have the first clue about this sort of thing, and I would like something that I can share with my husband. Normal kind of porn, well, I would feel way too uncomfortable, you know? It’s so unrealisitc, and sets up false expectations…

[…] link…] 21.03.06 @ 14:20 …from someone who is capable of explaining this sort of thing better than i can. (warning: more feminazi shit.)   […]

As a guy who doesn’t really follow feminism I found this incredibly interesting. I’d like to feel I’m more “enlightened” than some, I suppose, but reading something written in a smart, straight-forward way really gives some great insight into something I couldn’t really just understand by myself.

I really enjoyed reading this post, and responded to it in my online column, The Reckless Tonuge, you can check out the column here: http://media.orkut.com/articles/0439.html

Your article’s great!Loved it!
I put a link to it in a blog post.Hope you don’t mind?

Fucking fantastic! Sexual equality . men and women desire different things, which is why their sexuality is expressed differently!

Fucking fantastic! Sexual equality . men and women desire different things, which is why their sexuality is expressed differently!

Your point being?

Good article, but please, no more double-edged sword analogies. There are too many already. Do more justice to your thoughtful words.

“Think about the way the words “slut” and “whore” are used so flippantly in casual conversation. How often have we all heard someone (usually a man) utter the words “that dirty whore” or “that stupid slut” to indicate he is angry with a woman or dislikes her,”

Hmm, is that actually something you often hear men say or is it something you THINK men say?

In my opinion, this says more about your opinion of men than men’s collective opinion of women,

JCA —

I suppose that could be considered fair comment, and it’s certainly cleverly phrased, but I personally have heard many men, including some I love quite dearly, do this exact thing. I also constantly hear them calling inanimate things, computer game characters and each other “bitches” when they feel they’ve dominated it. It doesn’t mean I hate them for it or think they’re assholes or even think they mean these things in a malevolent way intended to hurt me or other women. But the fact that they having no qualms about using words like “slut” or “whore” in a context intended simply to insult a woman without any real relevance to her sexual past or her actual occupation, the fact that it is done so casually as a matter of course, says something about how our society perceives women, particularly with regard to sex.

As for whether they do it “often”, define “often.” It happens with regularity. Daily? Maybe not. But often enough. I’ve witnessed it often enough for me to mention it in this blog article. Too often, in my opinion. Why else would a magazine like “Hustler,” with a readership base of millions, feature cartoons depicting this precise phenomenon. Because it happens.

I’m not saying every man does it. I’m not even saying MOST men do it. I’m just saying that it happens, and when it does, more often than not in my experience it’s been a man doing the uttering. And since a feminist blogger is pretty much *always* required to offer this caveat: no one is saying women don’t do this either. They do it plenty and it’s almost worse coming from one woman about another than it is coming from a man, because every time one woman does this, it strips her of her own power.

If you and/or the men you know never engage in this behaviour, then all the power to you. If you are fortunate enough to enjoy an existence where this hardly ever happens, then I envy you.

When anyone, man or woman, flings around epithets like “slut” and “whore” as general-purpose insults against women they find unpleasant, it sends the message that there is something inherently degrading about “having been fucked.” I’m not down with it.

Pointing out the fact that I have indeed witnessed men saying things like this without a second thought and pointing out that it’s wrong doesn’t say anything about my opinion of men in general. It’s not like I’m assuming all men do it all the time and all men are assholes. I’m just pointing out that it happens and aside from so-called radical feminists, our culture completely tolerates it without blinking an eye, whether it’s the majority actively DOING it or not. I don’t want to live in a culture that so easily tolerates using the existence of womens’ sexual lives as weapons against them, verbal or otherwise.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, I find your analysis a bit poor. You assume too much. In your opinion, how do you explain the current situation? and in many different cultures? how about analysing a bit of history and humans physiology and psychology etc etc
This subject is much much more complicated indeed

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, I find your analysis a bit poor. You assume too much. In your opinion, how do you explain the current situation? and in many different cultures? how about analysing a bit of history and humans physiology and psychology etc etc. This subject is much much more complicated indeed

Thank you for sharing your comments, however I find your response a bit unhelpful. What, exactly, is it that you feel I’m assuming? You fail to provide details on what you refer to as the “current situation”, hence I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that. You fail to provide examples of how this mysterious “current situation” applies across cultures and time periods. How do you feel analysis of history and human physiology would refute or alter my analysis? Simply saying that “the subject is much more complicated” is meaningless without further illuminating your analysis of that complexity. And you suggest *I’m* lazy!

Thank you SO much for writing about what I wish I could express in my own words! I get so frusterated with how this topic can be interperted.

As a Christian guy, I found this very offensive. I agree that women are treated disrespectfully at times. But you’re implying (at least it seems this way) that it’s all men’s fault. However, women wearing low cut shirts, mini skirts, and other suggestive clothing, just degrades them selfs. You also seem to be stereotyping men. You seem to think all men think of girls lowly (i.e. calling girls sluts). I agree, it’s a horrible thing to do. But in all honesty, I think both men and women are at fault, and both men and women are disrespected. Humans in general (in my opinion) have lost respect for one another. I totally think women are equal to men, and men equal to women, I believe we both deserve the same rights, and deserve to be treated with respect, and not thought down upon. My bottom line is; I do think it’s wrong for men to degrade women the way they do, however, women are partly at fault.

Firstly, I don’t see what being Christian has to do with anything in relation to the topic at hand.

Secondly, you talk a lot about your perception of what I’m supposedly implying and your perception of what I seem to think, but say very little about anything I’ve actually written. I never suggested, either implicitly or explicitly, that ALL MEN think or do anything. Such generalizations don’t occur in my argument, although it’s extremely annoying that every single time a feminist writes rhetorical prose, she is somehow obligated to qualify it with disclaimers about how she’s not talking about ALL MEN so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of her male readers.

What I said that when words like “slut” and “whore” are bandied about as general purpose insults, in my experience, it has been a man doing the bandying the majority of the time (hence the use of the phrase “usually a man”), thereby implying that SOME women also do this, though in my experience not as often as SOME men — not that ALL MEN do this. If you are a man who doesn’t engage in some sexist behaviour I’m describing on my blog, then isn’t it self-evident that my words don’t apply to you, and therefore cannot, by definition, apply to all men? This is simple common sense that many (note, I say *many*, not *all*) male readers of feminist prose deliberately fail to exercise in so they can remain willfully blind to the underlying point and redirect the discourse toward the writer’s defense of her semantics and away from the actual topic at hand. I’m not responsible for your assumptions about my intent, your misinterpretation of my assumptions or your personal sensitivities to the material in this article.

Thirdly, the suggestion that women are somehow at least partially responsible for their own degradation by their choice of clothing is just simple-minded and offensive. This view is a kissing cousin of the “she was wearing a short skirt and asked to be raped” argument. Women exist in a culture that tells them their only real source of power or real worth is in being the object of mens’ sexual desire, but yet when we try to play by these rules, we’re accused of bringing our own degradation on ourselves, as though everything our patriarchal culture has taught us about our role and worth as women has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. Once again, men make the rules and women are blamed for playing the game. Which is precisely the point I was making in the first place when I discussed the whole “slut” issue.

hang on a minute here, men are used as sex objects in advertising, pornography and everyday social life! yes in a patriachal (sp?) society it seems biased, but do you think the switch to matriarchal life will change anything? women objectify men, call them man whores sleazes, ect just for having/trying to have sex, EXACTLY the same reason women are called sluts whores ect
removing gender labels ie androgeny, would solve this problem but will never really happen

I not sure what feminism mean beyond what webster defines it as.
Although it would be nice to see equality among the sexes that is a reality I don’t think will ever be realized. We live in a male dominated society and although we like to seperate our selves from the beast of the fields we still carry there primal nature. Female of any species is an object for male gratification. And women involvle with more than one man will be thought of as indecent and degraded. Good eassy though.

hi,kiki,
i posted a week or two ago. i am a nyu professor and am finishing up a documentary on porn. i would like to speak to you. please contact me.

chyng sun

To pick up chris’s point, yes some girls do degrade their gender. there’s no point getting arsey at me for saying it, it’s true; in the same way that blondes who put on a stupidly ditzy giggly persona are strengthening the ‘dumb blonde’ stereotype, people likeBritney Spears who made a fortune by wiggling her ass and singing provocatively, enforce any negative ideas of females. In this way, yes of course they are partly responsible. And if females want equality for every female, as a group, we’re also responsible for the actions of every female, as a group.

Also, I rarely hear men using terms like ’slut’ and ‘whore’- I hear females saying it much more often. Perhaps all your male friends are particularly aggressive? But yes, they do sometimes say stuff like that. In the same way they say ‘fuck’, and you can hardly say that shows a hateful, derisive attitude to fucking. A swear word is a swear word, a monosyllabic utterance that rarely takes any significance from its actual meaning.
anything else? oh yes, the degradation of men. Popular ads of women dominating men, of men being the dumb partner, songs by women singers about ‘i want you so i’ll have you’ or similar, would seriously not be legal if the gender roles were reversed. Loads of adverts, jokes, music videos, etc wouldn’t be. I loved the body of your article, and I agree with it for the most part, but yourcomments seem to suggest that you’re looking at the issue from a feminist viewpoint. Which is, by definition, sexist.

Hi, i am a NYU professor and am finishing up a documentary on porn. i would hope to have you read your definition of FMF. Could you please contact me asap?

Chyng Sun, Ph.D.
New York University

I was told to google ‘fuck me feminists’ from a forum and ended up finding this. So that’s the short history of this random reply.

I might have missed some lines in your post, as I started to blur in vision (it’s late) and started to skim/read quickly. I did read through it all because I wanted to ask a question and needed to be sure you didn’t mention it. The question (the main one) is this: if men wanted to have sex with women, why would we make it so damn complicated by socialising women to think (female-centric) sex was icky?

You said that the words ’slut’ and ‘whore’ carry a negative connotation. I unfortunately never saw it as that because I think either everybody’s a whore or nobody’s a whore — the important thing is to be consistent in applying the judgement. However and obviously that doesn’t translate to everybody coming to the same conclusion. I was talking to a female friend about video games, and she made the observation that there’s a bunch of mario-based sports games. I made the seemingly innocent comment that Mario’s Nintendo’s ‘whore’ and the conversation went silent. Maybe I’m looking too much into it.

The idea of females taking back their sexuality is very interesting, and I think it has some historical basis back in the 60’s (and I’m sure with contention from both male and females), but was unfortunately dropped down the line. I oversimplify when I say I think it’s due to people growing up in 5-10 years, and wanton sex is not productive to maintaining a good society. This raises the question of why women need to be the gatekeepers to prevent wanton sex, which I believe have biological answers I won’t bring up.

The last thing to bring up is that while females should be free to take back their sexuality, as sex is a primarily male-oriented market, there isn’t much to ‘take back’. I am sure there’s probably a feminist porn company (if there isn’t make one — it WILL have a market) that doesn’t produce things equivalent to femdom. Regardless, I haven’t seen such things. All porn is male-based, and if there’s such thing as a FMF-porn, I would just liken it to another ‘fetish’ (to be simple) and just wonder why it isn’t being produced. I wanted to raise this issue as something probing but as I typed I concluded it was as simple as I see it.

I don’t know if you can reply to anything but my email is up there.

hi, i am a NYU professor, finishing up a film on porn. I would love to have you read your “fuck me feminism” posting. it fits perfectly well in the film. Please contact me asap.

Chyng Sun, Ph.D.
New York University

It’s nice to see someone voicing the same thoughts that I have had for years.
I’ve been trying to articulate the problem with FMF to so many people I know, but most of them just label me as “frigid” because of my views. I would like to point out that labels like frigid are just as bad as “slut” or “whore” and just point out the fine line women are suppose to walk with their sexuality.
And defining your sexuality in more stereotypical female ways is not bad. I don’t know you can only be empowered sexually if you choose to embrace the visual, casual male sexuality and not the emotional, monogamous female version!

[…] d, they’d quickly realize that nothing could be further from the truth. Yesterday I read a really good blog post about “fuck me feminism,” which refers to feminists who believe that w […]

[…] to sell radical feminism is while wearing a Tarzan-style bikini. A movement called “Fuck Me Feminism” also supports Beyonce’s efforts to game the system from within: “Women […]

First of all, I’d like to say thanks to Kiki for elucidating beautifully into words, thoughts that have been troubling me for some time. I’ve always been wary of the “fuck you” type of feminism which seems to be what I call “misterogyny”i.e. solving the problem by hating all men, but then again the “fuck me” variety seem far worse and more dangerous to society at large.
The one thought which keeps popping into my head, I know from, let’s say, empirical evidence (i.e. 31 years of living on the planet earth as a woman) that men have a biological/reflex urge to objectify everything e.g. cars, steam trains, computers, guitars, stereos, oh yes and women. I discovered this to my absolute horror whilst walking down the street one sunny day in my early teens and saw a man lustily copping an eyeful of me (I was gawkily wearing t-shirt and jeans for chrissakes!) while his unbemused girlfriend pretended to look on. Why was he looking at me when he had a beautiful girl with him, I wondered innocently, It actually made me very angry! Then time has whizzed on and I have often been either the coveted singleton causing jealousy or on the other side, thinking “Hang on! Why is he making eyes at her!!”
Further to this the (then) shocking admission by both my father and grandfather “all men look at other women”
So if it’s natural for them to look at women on the street all the time. billboards and the like are pure spoonfeeding without the fear of their eyes not landing on an airbrushed desireable. An ideal day of walking down the street and seeing a string of beautiful women smiling back at you..
Though where should it begin and end? I like looking at photos of beautiful women dressed nicely (usually from the 1960s) and indeed model myself on them. I have more pleasure looking at them (and feel strangely empowered looking at them) than looking at pictures of men and I’m straight! I hasten to add that these women are heavily clad and haven’t been obviously marketed as a sex object, Though you could argue that photography itself immediately reduces everything to an object.
I feel that the big problem is that men are hot wired to objectify and so like these objectifying pictures/pornography etc whereas women are not hot wired to be objects. A clash of biological imperatives though unfortunately as men are running the joint they always get their way: hence objectification galore!! What does everybody else think on this theory?

Wow, where were you when I was young! You make a very valid point and say it well. You go girl!

Need Generous Sex Partener

Need Generous Sex Partener

Неплохая подборка в блоге, хорошо сделано, автору спс.

BRAVO BRAVO …Oh KIKKI You my dear you have hit the nail on the head…I stumbled across your site when I googled ..all men want to do is fuck me after talkingto a guy that Im interested in ..in our conversation hes like ” baby I cant wait to make love to you” and I told him the feeling was mutual and that I have the desire just like he does but ,we just met and I know that it will ruin it if we have sex this soon on in the relationship..just like the comic posted on your site..I have had this same situation arise all to frequently..to sum it up I want sex with him ..he wants sex with me so if I give in to my desire then no matter what he says about still respecting me ,,hes still thinking silently that Im a slut..and then I will not be girlfriend material but more like fuck buddy material…IM sick to death of being just a fuck buddy and have sooooo many more awesome qualities than just some good coochy.. so when I express my concerns over the sex too soon ..the common reply from guys is “oh baby ill still respect you ” Ive seen it too many times. The dynamics ALWAYS change ,the guys usually start just only to refer to their sex lust for me after that instead of the romantic gestures and sweet talk that went on before the sex..or the guy might even have no further contact with me.. I do what i want regardless of the lable that comes with it.I only have 1 life to live and Im gonna date like a man so i dont get played like a bitch..yeah Im a FMF and good at it.

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